Weaponizing Catholic Scholars against Catholicism (Vatican 1)?

When 𝑅𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑜𝑛 & 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑜𝑙𝑜𝑔𝑦 hosted the Rev. Dr. Richard Price (Heythrop) on the subject of the Papacy in Greek and Latin sides of the 1st millennium, there were commentators who were quick to turn Price into an anti-Catholic weapon by which to falsify the 1st Vatican Council. That was not a surprise, as many Protestants and Eastern Orthodox students of history have noticed a handy help in Roman Catholic scholars themselves against Catholic doctrine. However, I think that this is a tad bit one-sided, quite often. While it is true that one can run through a good number of Roman Catholic scholars and find all sorts of concessions that seem to score points for someone who is against the Papacy, if it is equally observed what these same scholars say about foundational claims of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, particularly the latter, then it gets manifested that weaponizing these scholars as anti-Catholic weapons, and not anti-Orthodox weapons, is a result of being short-sighted in the study of their material.

We see this, for ex, with Fr. Price when it comes to iconology and iconodulia since he admits that while the bishops of Nicaea (787) were theologically correct, the iconoclasts were historically correct in saying icons were not produced and venerated by the Apostles and their immediate successors. That’s a massive blow under the floor of Eastern Orthodoxy, though we may contest it (and rightly so!). Nevertheless, the point is clear. Just when you’ve thought you got yourself a nice weapon, it has too much kick-back.

I wish here to draw attention to some statements by another Catholic scholar who has the potential to be used, similar to Fr. Price, as a weapon against Catholicism, but which ends up being a two-edge sword that cuts into the weaponizers. I’ll bring it all into a nice wrap in the end but challenge yourself by trying to find it on your own as I work up to the conclusion.

The late Fr. Francis A Sullivan SJ (1922-2019) was a prominent Catholic theologian in the area of the magisterium and ecclesiology. He was extremely well educated. Besides getting his PhD, he achieved the status of both 𝑆𝑎𝑐𝑟𝑎𝑒 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑜𝑙𝑜𝑔𝑖𝑎𝑒 𝐿𝑖𝑐𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑠 (STL) and 𝑆𝑎𝑐𝑟𝑎𝑒 𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑜𝑙𝑜𝑔𝑖𝑎𝑒 𝐷𝑜𝑐𝑡𝑜𝑟 (STD), which is a Licentiate of Sacred Theology and a Doctorate in Sacred Theology. He seems to have been a center-left (?) theologian, seeing as he pitched in thoughts doubting the infallibility of 𝑂𝑟𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜 𝑆𝑎𝑐𝑒𝑟𝑑𝑜𝑡𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑠 (regarding woman’s ordination) and the Church’s stance against contraception. One might say he wasn’t so much, even in the slightest, pro female ordination or pro contraception, but was enamored with something that we intuitively expect would be easy to grasp but is not, namely, the complexity of what makes an infallible teaching via the universal ordinary magisterium (and being able to recognize it as such!).

And that brings me to what I want to speak about regarding his work. I think Sullivan is another instance, similar to most contemporary Catholic theologians, of someone who was caught up in a very risky understanding of doctrinal development and with the dynamics of divine revelation. That is, he made some concessions which would be quite obviously seem to go against the credibility of Catholic doctrine, but he cleverly ends up regaining traction just before falling into the ditch by a complex set of nuanced thinking, all which seem unhelpful at first. Consider what he says below concerning the existence of the “Roman Papacy” in the New Testament:

“𝗪𝗲 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗿𝗲𝗰𝗸𝗼𝗻 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗳𝗮𝗰𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗮𝗿𝗱 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗯𝘂𝘁 𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝗼 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝗶𝗮𝗿 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝘄𝗲 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗯𝗹𝗲𝗺 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝗱𝗼𝗰𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗲. 𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗯𝗹𝗲𝗺 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗽𝗹𝗲𝘅 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗰𝗮𝘀𝗲 𝗶𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗳 𝗶𝗻 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝗶𝗮𝗿 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗽𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗽𝗿𝗲𝘀𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝘀𝗲𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁, 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗖𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵’𝘀 𝗼𝗻𝗴𝗼𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗹𝗶𝗳𝗲, 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘆 𝗶𝗻𝘀𝘁𝗶𝘁𝘂𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘄𝗲 𝗸𝗻𝗼𝘄 𝗮𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗥𝗼𝗺𝗮𝗻 𝗽𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗰𝘆. 𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗼𝗯𝘃𝗶𝗼𝘂𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗲 𝗱𝗼 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘀𝘁𝗶𝘁𝘂𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗱𝘆 𝗲𝘅𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝘀 𝘀𝘂𝗰𝗵 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗡𝗲𝘄 𝗧𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗖𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵. 𝗧𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝘂𝗹𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝗮 𝗰𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗶𝗲𝘀-𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝗵𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗿𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁, 𝘄𝗵𝗶𝗰𝗵 𝘄𝗲 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗯𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗲𝗹𝘆-𝗴𝘂𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗱, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘀𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗲 𝗶𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗼, 𝗮𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘀𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘀𝗲𝗺𝗶𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗳𝗮𝗰𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗱𝘆 𝗽𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗡𝗲𝘄 𝗧𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁. 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗶𝘀 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝘁𝗼 𝗷𝘂𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗳𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗖𝗮𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗰𝗵 𝗶𝗻𝘀𝘁𝗶𝘁𝘂𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗥𝗼𝗺𝗮𝗻 𝗽𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗰𝘆, 𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘂𝗴𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝘂𝗹𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝗽𝗼𝘀𝘁-𝗡𝗲𝘄 𝗧𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗖𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝘄𝗵𝗶𝗰𝗵 𝗺𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗮𝗰𝘁𝗼𝗿𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗵𝘂𝗺𝗮𝗻 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘆𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗽𝗮𝗿𝘁, 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘀𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀𝘁’𝘀 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗖𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵… 𝗔𝘀 𝘄𝗲 𝘀𝗵𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝘀𝗲𝗲, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗼𝗿𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗽𝗼𝗶𝗻𝘁𝘀 𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗰𝗹𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗰𝗮𝗺𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝘃𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗴𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗲𝗰𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝘀 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗵𝗮𝗱 𝗿𝗲𝗽𝗲𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝗮𝗹𝘂𝘁𝗮𝗿𝘆 𝗲𝗳𝗳𝗲𝗰𝘁𝘀 𝘄𝗵𝗶𝗰𝗵 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝗶𝗮𝗿 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗵𝗮𝗱 𝗵𝗮𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗱𝗼𝗰𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗽𝘂𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘀𝗮𝗳𝗲𝗴𝘂𝗮𝗿𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗱𝗼𝘅 𝗳𝗮𝗶𝘁𝗵. 𝗜𝘁 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝗿𝗲𝗳𝗹𝗲𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗼𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗴𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝗳𝗿𝘂𝗶𝘁 𝘄𝗵𝗶𝗰𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗵𝗮𝗱 𝗯𝗼𝗿𝗻𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗖𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗲 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗰𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗯𝗲 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗲𝗱 𝗯𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗶𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗼𝗹𝘆 𝗦𝗽𝗶𝗿𝗶𝘁. 𝗦𝗶𝗺𝗶𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗹𝘆, 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗳 𝗶𝗻 𝗽𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘄𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗰𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗮𝘂𝘀𝗲 𝗶𝘁 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗮𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗽𝗼𝗽𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗶𝗱𝗲 𝗾𝘂𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗳𝗮𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘄𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗲 𝗖𝗵𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝗰𝗮𝗺𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗯𝗲 𝗴𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗰𝗰𝗲𝗽𝘁𝗲𝗱. 𝗜𝘁 𝘀𝗵𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗿𝗽𝗿𝗶𝘀𝗲 𝘂𝘀, 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗻, 𝘁𝗼 𝗼𝗯𝘀𝗲𝗿𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝘁𝗼𝘄𝗮𝗿𝗱𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗲𝗻𝗱 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗳𝗶𝗿𝘀𝘁 𝗺𝗶𝗹𝗹𝗲𝗻𝗻𝗶𝘂𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗲 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗶𝘁 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗳 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝗲𝗰𝘂𝗺𝗲𝗻𝗶𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗹𝘀, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗰𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝗽𝗮𝗽𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗯𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗮𝗺𝗲 𝘂𝗻𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘀𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗰𝗰𝗲𝗽𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗯𝘆 𝗥𝗼𝗺𝗮𝗻 𝗖𝗮𝘁𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗶𝗰𝘀, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗻 𝗼𝗻𝗹𝘆 𝗯𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺. ” (𝑴𝒂𝒈𝒊𝒔𝒕𝒆𝒓𝒊𝒖𝒎: 𝑻𝒆𝒂𝒄𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝑨𝒖𝒕𝒉𝒐𝒓𝒊𝒕𝒚 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑪𝒂𝒕𝒉𝒐𝒍𝒊𝒄 𝑪𝒉𝒖𝒓𝒄𝒉 (𝑷𝒂𝒖𝒍𝒊𝒔𝒕 𝑷𝒓𝒆𝒔𝒔, 1983), 83-84).

Sullivan thinks that whatever God revealed in Christ with the Apostles, it was not such that a “Roman papacy” existed during that time. One can find similar statements in the scholarship of Fr. Klaus Schatz, for example. That sounds like a nice little golden nugget to bring up to the next Catholic apologist next time a debate on the subject comes up. The Papacy not existing during the times of the New Testament. Yeah, that sounds bad.

Now, before we get too excited, one will notice a few things. He doesn’t just say the Roman papacy didn’t exist. He says they did not exist “as such”, which means they existed in another form perhaps. In fact, he does say that the Roman papacy is the product of “seminal factors already present in the New Testament” but not explicitly unfolded. One might make some sense of this, though I think this kind of language tends to be less helpful. One might also refer to Sullivan’s work on the monoepiscopate, which he thinks did not exist directly after Peter and Paul in the Roman ekklesia, something which I can’t imagine is reasonably consistent with the 1st Vatican Council (though again, there is no end of supply of arguments from people who try to say that it is). At best, Sullivan is aiming for substantial continuity even if his theory has no material for it.

Moreover, the Papacy and Papal infallibility, he writes, were at the other end of centuries long development. This sounds like the early Church simply didn’t believe in it, not so much because she protested against the idea, but because it wasn’t even a consideration of mind to be dealt with to begin with! Problematic, yes.

But notice also how Sullivan thinks that Conciliar infallibility and Ecumenical Councils, too, were not concepts in existence during the New Testament. And here he doesn’t simply mean the imperial stature of those Councils, but the concept of an infallible synod altogether. Sullivan also thinks this was not present during New Testament times, nor directly after it. Rather, it also took centuries. This is quite clear in that he references the work of the Jesuit theologian Herman Josef Sieben whose work 𝘋𝘪𝘦 𝘒𝘰𝘯𝘻𝘪𝘭𝘴𝘪𝘥𝘦𝘦 𝘥𝘦𝘳 𝘈𝘭𝘵𝘦𝘯 𝘒𝘪𝘳𝘤𝘩𝘦 (1979) “showed” how the Fathers in the Councils did not show a sense of recognition that their decisions were *a priori* infallible (p. 85). I happen to think this is factually wrong, but I am not going to venture in that direction. Sieben held that the only true criterion for the ecumenicity of Councils is when its decrees were received by the whole Church, as consonant with Scripture and Tradition. This, too, is also problematic and requires some further defining, but I’m staying on another point for now (if you’d like to discuss, bring it up in the comments).

Sullivan also thinks that it was understood within the 7 era of Ecumenical Councils that infallible teaching required the unique participation of the successor of St. Peter (p. 76), and not just as another Patriarch in a series of Patriarchs, or even the lead Patriarch, but because of a special investment given to St. Peter, the original primate of the Roman diocese. The idea is that a divinely instituted leadership was bestowed on Peter individually and which gets passed, by way of lineal succession, to the successors to his stationary cathedra fixed in Rome. This is a theory which is unacceptable to Eastern Orthodoxy ecclesiology, but which Sullivan thinks is present in the 1st millennium history.

Thus, we have Sullivan’s scholarship giving us what seems to be a problematic point on the lack of existence of the Papacy (as it would exist later) in the New Testament times as well as in post-Apostolic Christian antiquity, but also a heavy dose, albeit smaller, of 𝑎ℎ𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑚 to Orthodoxy’s doctrine of conciliar infallibility and her more recent ecclesiology which excludes any notion of a divinely instituted Petrine government fixed from Rome as a sine qua non for producing infallible doctrine in Councils. Now, Sullivan indeed thinks these things were organic developments, but Eastern Orthodox thinkers can often be found denigrating the idea that her doctrines developed in this fashion and find it rather troublesome to Catholicism that the latter’s dogmatic formula arising in such a fashion. All in all, I think what we have here is another instance of a Catholic scholar who can be cited against Catholicism, but who also has a blow to swing in other unwanted directions. Lastly, the Orthodox might retort with, “Bah, Erick. The Orthodox ecclesiology is far more loose and capable of withstanding more damage because of its lack of centralization and that is doesn’t focus so much of its truth criterion to the sensitivity of one man or one bishop” (etc. etc.). But realize, the 𝑎ℎ𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑚 that Sullivan would be pointing out here still cuts across the whole of what conservative Orthodox theologians would want to be something that the Apostles and their immediate successors were conscious of. Kind of like iconodulia. Err… that is, what is claimed by scholars regarding iconodulia.

Schismatics, the SSPX, and Sedes w/ John Salza

John Salza, a long-time Catholic apologist, has made an extremely good case against the ecclesiological convictions of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). I’ve long said before that, whatever one might legitimately point out about the issues with the current state of the hierarchy in the Catholic Church, the solution embedded into the SSPX narrative is irreconcilable with Scripture, Tradition, and the consensus of the Fathers/Theologians. Consequently, there is no hope within the SSPX to regain something from the Apostolic tradition as understood by historic Catholic theology. Anyone involved would do well to rethink their steps, revisit the cogency of their position in light of what men like Salza are saying, and hopefully see the ecclesiological dead-end in the SSPX for what it is. Salza and Fradd do wonders in this video.

Nevertheless, if one were to think that this interview was supporting the pendulum-swing opposite of cheering on the Pontificate of Pope Francis, in either doctrine or discipline, they might be surprised to find a rather glaring 2-min segment between 2:40:55 and 2:42:20 which I’ve transcribed below. Anyone who listened to the whole video would not be surprised overall since even Salza himself expressed elsewhere in the video his difficulties with the continuity between the traditional Catholic doctrine of Church/State and the extremely controversial decree Dignitatis Humanae, what appears to be St. John Paul II’s “extremely scandalous” sin against the faith when he publicly kissed the Quran, the “Pachamama” event, and a variety of other issues related to the liturgy.

What this shows is that while people are sure to benefit from the clear and convincing case against the imaginative solutions in sedevacantism and the SSPX, this is not meant to squelch all the difficulties that are involved in dealing with the current crisis within Catholicism. One is urged to remain firm in the unity of the Catholic Church by strict adherence to the unity of the Apostolic See, a principle, however difficult to cope with, that is well established in Church history. But no one is put under an illusion that all is well, that we should ignore talking about the problems that are unmistakably displayed by the Roman Pontiff himself and spread throughout the hierarchy, nor that every problem is safely solved. If today’s issues do not exclude the kind of thought that the heir to St. Peter’s throne could be a danger to our children, were he to be a children’s catechist, let alone Pope, then the point of this interview cannot be entirely one of relief.

No, the problem(s) are still there, and they don’t appear to be going anywhere soon. The aim here is not so much ecclesiastical therapy or one’s finally casting off the burden of anxiety that comes with joining what appears to be the antithesis of the real Apostolic patrimony as much as it is simply the raw persevering of the legal principles that undergird the essence of Catholic ecclesiology, come what may. In my own mind, this kind of candid admission from prominent Catholic speakers does not leave us without a bit of self-reflection. Regardless of how theologically correct the arguments are, this should also calibrate just how we treat folks who are flying off to sedevacantism, the SSPX, Eastern Orthodox, Protestantism, and whatever alternative happens to appear especially sweet from the current sewage-vantage point. If anything else were also clear, it is the sheer inconsistency of making one’s undiluted aim of attacking dissent within while also being forced by the undeniable evidence, even if it occurs in a few minutes of time, to admit the matter that plagues all of these souls in the first place anyway.

𝗠𝗮𝘁𝘁 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝗱𝗱: 𝘐 𝘴𝘦𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦’𝘴 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘥𝘶𝘭𝘶𝘮 𝘴𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘨… 𝘴𝘰 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘨𝘰 𝘸𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘰𝘰 𝘧𝘢𝘳 𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘴𝘪𝘥𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘍𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘴. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 𝘶𝘯𝘴𝘺𝘮𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘤 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘧 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘢𝘺𝘴… 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘥 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘩𝘦 𝘥𝘰𝘦𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘺𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘴𝘬𝘦𝘱𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘴, 𝘰𝘬.. 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘨𝘦𝘵 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘵𝘪𝘳𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘴𝘦𝘦𝘮 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘍𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘹𝘤𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦. 𝘚𝘰 𝘐 𝘸𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘢𝘴𝘬 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴. 𝑰’𝒎 𝒏𝒐𝒕 𝒎𝒂𝒌𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒔 𝒄𝒍𝒂𝒊𝒎, 𝒃𝒖𝒕 𝒄𝒐𝒖𝒍𝒅𝒏’𝒕 𝒊𝒕 𝒃𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒄𝒂𝒔𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝑷𝒐𝒑𝒆 𝑭𝒓𝒂𝒏𝒄𝒊𝒔 𝒊𝒔 𝒂𝒏 𝒂𝒘𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝑷𝒐𝒑𝒆, 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝑰 𝒘𝒐𝒖𝒍𝒅𝒏’𝒕 𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒏 𝒘𝒂𝒏𝒕 𝒉𝒊𝒎 𝒕𝒐 𝒃𝒆 𝒂 𝒄𝒂𝒕𝒆𝒄𝒉𝒊𝒔𝒕 𝒇𝒐𝒓 𝒎𝒚 5-𝒚𝒆𝒂𝒓-𝒐𝒍𝒅 𝒄𝒉𝒊𝒍𝒅, 𝒍𝒆𝒕 𝒂𝒍𝒐𝒏𝒆 𝑷𝒐𝒑𝒆, 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒚𝒆𝒕 𝒉𝒆 𝒃𝒆 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒕𝒓𝒖𝒆 𝑷𝒐𝒑𝒆.

𝗝𝗼𝗵𝗻 𝗦𝗮𝗹𝘇𝗮: 𝘖𝘩 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘺. 𝘐𝘵’𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘴 𝘥𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝒔𝒄𝒂𝒏𝒅𝒂𝒍𝒐𝒖𝒔 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒈𝒔 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘩𝘢𝘴 𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒏 𝒕𝒂𝒖𝒈𝒉𝒕 𝒘𝒉𝒂𝒕 𝒂𝒑𝒑𝒆𝒂𝒓 𝒕𝒐 𝒃𝒆 𝒈𝒓𝒂𝒗𝒆 𝒆𝒓𝒓𝒐𝒓𝒔, 𝘢𝘭𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩 𝘐 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘴𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘔𝘢𝘵𝘵… 𝘐 𝘥𝘰𝘯’𝘵 𝘵𝘳𝘶𝘴𝘵 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘐 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩 𝘢 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘳𝘥 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘺, 𝘐’𝘮 𝘢 𝘭𝘢𝘸𝘺𝘦𝘳, 𝘐’𝘮 𝘤𝘰𝘨𝘯𝘪𝘻𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘴𝘢𝘺 𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘦𝘭𝘴𝘦, 𝘐 𝘮𝘦𝘢𝘯… 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦’𝘴 𝘢 𝘭𝘰𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘥𝘪𝘭𝘪𝘨𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘰 , 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦’𝘴 𝘴𝘰 𝘮𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵’𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘯 𝘢𝘵 𝘶𝘴…. 𝘺𝘢 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦’𝘴 24 𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘢 𝘥𝘢𝘺, 𝘩𝘰𝘸 𝘮𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘦𝘷𝘪𝘭 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘍𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘴 𝘥𝘰 𝘪𝘯 𝘢 𝘥𝘢𝘺? 𝘐’𝘮 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘥𝘰𝘸𝘯𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘺𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘪𝘴 𝘢𝘵 𝘢𝘭𝘭, 𝘣𝘶𝘵…

𝗠𝗮𝘁𝘁 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝗱𝗱: 𝘎𝘰𝘰𝘥, 𝒄𝒖𝒛 𝑰 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒌 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒄𝒓𝒊𝒔𝒊𝒔 𝒊𝒔 𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒏 𝒘𝒐𝒓𝒔𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒏 𝒆𝒗𝒆𝒏 𝑻𝒂𝒚𝒍𝒐𝒓 𝑴𝒂𝒓𝒔𝒉𝒂𝒍𝒍 𝒄𝒐𝒖𝒍𝒅 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒌… 𝘮𝘢𝘺𝘣𝘦 𝘐’𝘮 𝘫𝘶𝘴𝘵 𝘤𝘺𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭… 𝘐 𝘫𝘶𝘴𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘬 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘯 𝘸𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘬 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘺𝘦𝘵 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘍𝘳𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘵𝘳𝘶𝘦 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘊𝘩𝘶𝘳𝘤𝘩 𝘪𝘴 𝘊𝘩𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘵’𝘴 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘏𝘦’𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘨𝘦.